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	<title>Comments for vetta project</title>
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		<title>Comment on AIQ by Joshua Olson</title>
		<link>http://www.vetta.org/2011/11/aiq/comment-page-1/#comment-21538</link>
		<dc:creator>Joshua Olson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Feb 2012 19:02:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vetta.org/?p=1058#comment-21538</guid>
		<description>Someone finally mentioned Go!

Personally, I&#039;m much more interested in a universal ai learning Go than Chess...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Someone finally mentioned Go!</p>
<p>Personally, I&#8217;m much more interested in a universal ai learning Go than Chess&#8230;</p>
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		<title>Comment on AIQ by John Middlemas</title>
		<link>http://www.vetta.org/2011/11/aiq/comment-page-1/#comment-21537</link>
		<dc:creator>John Middlemas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Jan 2012 12:12:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vetta.org/?p=1058#comment-21537</guid>
		<description>You mention that the upper limit (of intelligence?) is AIXI. Any idea what the AIQ score for that would be?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You mention that the upper limit (of intelligence?) is AIXI. Any idea what the AIQ score for that would be?</p>
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		<title>Comment on AIQ by Shane Legg</title>
		<link>http://www.vetta.org/2011/11/aiq/comment-page-1/#comment-21535</link>
		<dc:creator>Shane Legg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Jan 2012 23:16:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vetta.org/?p=1058#comment-21535</guid>
		<description>It doesn&#039;t use Levin search.  You should read one of the papers about how it works.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It doesn&#8217;t use Levin search.  You should read one of the papers about how it works.</p>
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		<title>Comment on AIQ by Eray Ozkural</title>
		<link>http://www.vetta.org/2011/11/aiq/comment-page-1/#comment-21534</link>
		<dc:creator>Eray Ozkural</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Jan 2012 11:40:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vetta.org/?p=1058#comment-21534</guid>
		<description>Isn&#039;t MC-AIXI basically randomized levin search? If that&#039;s so,  it is unlikely that you can use it to solve any problem with solution complexity that exceeds the logarithm of the memory of your machine, regardless of any constant factor improvements, even on unrealistically fast machines. Constant factor improvements aren&#039;t that important for any algorithm. Of course I&#039;m not even talking about universal program codes or incremental learning which are also essential. Still it might be possible to solve conceptually simple problems like chess with non-universal learners.  That would be interesting. I see that it&#039;s been suggested to fine-tune the learner to play chess, but that sort of defeats the purpose, although &quot;parameter mining&quot; is very popular in machine learning field (almost everyone does it, why the results are unreliable). People have referred me to ILP research, which always did that trick: choosing primitives carefully. Well, if you choose them very carefully, you can solve about any problem.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Isn&#8217;t MC-AIXI basically randomized levin search? If that&#8217;s so,  it is unlikely that you can use it to solve any problem with solution complexity that exceeds the logarithm of the memory of your machine, regardless of any constant factor improvements, even on unrealistically fast machines. Constant factor improvements aren&#8217;t that important for any algorithm. Of course I&#8217;m not even talking about universal program codes or incremental learning which are also essential. Still it might be possible to solve conceptually simple problems like chess with non-universal learners.  That would be interesting. I see that it&#8217;s been suggested to fine-tune the learner to play chess, but that sort of defeats the purpose, although &#8220;parameter mining&#8221; is very popular in machine learning field (almost everyone does it, why the results are unreliable). People have referred me to ILP research, which always did that trick: choosing primitives carefully. Well, if you choose them very carefully, you can solve about any problem.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Goodbye 2011, hello 2012 by sp</title>
		<link>http://www.vetta.org/2011/12/goodbye-2011-hello-2012/comment-page-1/#comment-21527</link>
		<dc:creator>sp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jan 2012 20:28:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vetta.org/?p=1068#comment-21527</guid>
		<description>Ivo, thanks for the link. Yes, unsupervised learning is essential for AGI, and some progress is happening all the time in various branches of machine learning. But I would not take the results presented in the talk as an indication of the breakthrough leading to a proto-AGI in 8 years. The ideas of sparse coding / independent component analysis date back to 90s. And a lot is still missing. For example, how to deal with invariances (geometric, photometric etc) is poorly understood, especially in the unsupervised learning  framework.

From what Shane said (since he did not name a single ML approach), I assume that his forecast is (mostly) based on recent progress within the group of his collaborators. I look forward to seeing those results, when they get published.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ivo, thanks for the link. Yes, unsupervised learning is essential for AGI, and some progress is happening all the time in various branches of machine learning. But I would not take the results presented in the talk as an indication of the breakthrough leading to a proto-AGI in 8 years. The ideas of sparse coding / independent component analysis date back to 90s. And a lot is still missing. For example, how to deal with invariances (geometric, photometric etc) is poorly understood, especially in the unsupervised learning  framework.</p>
<p>From what Shane said (since he did not name a single ML approach), I assume that his forecast is (mostly) based on recent progress within the group of his collaborators. I look forward to seeing those results, when they get published.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Goodbye 2011, hello 2012 by Ivo Danihelka</title>
		<link>http://www.vetta.org/2011/12/goodbye-2011-hello-2012/comment-page-1/#comment-21526</link>
		<dc:creator>Ivo Danihelka</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Jan 2012 12:41:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vetta.org/?p=1068#comment-21526</guid>
		<description>In the last 6 years, big progress was done in unsupervised feature learning. You can see some successes in &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmNOAtZIgIk&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Andrew Ng&#039;s talk&lt;/a&gt;.

In the future, we will see progress in: sequence prediction, integration with reinforcement learning, scaling to scenes with multiple objects. And new problems will be discovered on the way.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In the last 6 years, big progress was done in unsupervised feature learning. You can see some successes in <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmNOAtZIgIk" rel="nofollow">Andrew Ng&#8217;s talk</a>.</p>
<p>In the future, we will see progress in: sequence prediction, integration with reinforcement learning, scaling to scenes with multiple objects. And new problems will be discovered on the way.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Goodbye 2011, hello 2012 by Shane Legg</title>
		<link>http://www.vetta.org/2011/12/goodbye-2011-hello-2012/comment-page-1/#comment-21525</link>
		<dc:creator>Shane Legg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Jan 2012 10:27:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vetta.org/?p=1068#comment-21525</guid>
		<description>As I&#039;m currently working with collaborators in many of these areas, I prefer to talk about it after the research is published.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As I&#8217;m currently working with collaborators in many of these areas, I prefer to talk about it after the research is published.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Goodbye 2011, hello 2012 by sp</title>
		<link>http://www.vetta.org/2011/12/goodbye-2011-hello-2012/comment-page-1/#comment-21524</link>
		<dc:creator>sp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Jan 2012 07:58:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vetta.org/?p=1068#comment-21524</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the answer. Computer performance, machine learning, neuroscience advances, it all makes sense. But could you be a little more specific about the machine learning methods? It seems you imply significance of recent progress. If it is not a secret, could you name some of these new methods? Thanks again!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the answer. Computer performance, machine learning, neuroscience advances, it all makes sense. But could you be a little more specific about the machine learning methods? It seems you imply significance of recent progress. If it is not a secret, could you name some of these new methods? Thanks again!</p>
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		<title>Comment on Goodbye 2011, hello 2012 by Shane Legg</title>
		<link>http://www.vetta.org/2011/12/goodbye-2011-hello-2012/comment-page-1/#comment-21523</link>
		<dc:creator>Shane Legg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Jan 2012 00:20:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vetta.org/?p=1068#comment-21523</guid>
		<description>Many things, but in three areas:

1) The simplest and least interesting is computer performance.  Seeing the same again over the next 8 years probably isn&#039;t necessary, but it will clearly make it more likely that an impressive proto-AGI will be developed.

2) Machine learning methods that I expect to be relevant to making a proto-AGI have made a lot of progress in the last 8 years, especially the last 3 years.

3) Neuroscience is making a lot of progress.  Some important parts of the brain&#039;s design are now fairly well understood, and I think we&#039;re making reasonable progress on a number of other important elements of the brain&#039;s design.  This is providing us with many AGI design hints.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Many things, but in three areas:</p>
<p>1) The simplest and least interesting is computer performance.  Seeing the same again over the next 8 years probably isn&#8217;t necessary, but it will clearly make it more likely that an impressive proto-AGI will be developed.</p>
<p>2) Machine learning methods that I expect to be relevant to making a proto-AGI have made a lot of progress in the last 8 years, especially the last 3 years.</p>
<p>3) Neuroscience is making a lot of progress.  Some important parts of the brain&#8217;s design are now fairly well understood, and I think we&#8217;re making reasonable progress on a number of other important elements of the brain&#8217;s design.  This is providing us with many AGI design hints.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Goodbye 2011, hello 2012 by sp</title>
		<link>http://www.vetta.org/2011/12/goodbye-2011-hello-2012/comment-page-1/#comment-21521</link>
		<dc:creator>sp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Jan 2012 21:39:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vetta.org/?p=1068#comment-21521</guid>
		<description>&gt; I expect to see an impressive proto-AGI within the next 8 years.  By this I mean a system with basic vision, basic sound processing, basic movement control, and basic language abilities, with all of these things being essentially learnt rather than preprogrammed.

Could you elaborate on which developments in AI research make you think that a proto-AGI may appear so soon? Is it some new ideas (refs to published work or just names of researches would be helpful)? Or is it some old ideas + progress in CPU speed? Basically, what is the critical difference between today and 8 years ago?

Thanks!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&gt; I expect to see an impressive proto-AGI within the next 8 years.  By this I mean a system with basic vision, basic sound processing, basic movement control, and basic language abilities, with all of these things being essentially learnt rather than preprogrammed.</p>
<p>Could you elaborate on which developments in AI research make you think that a proto-AGI may appear so soon? Is it some new ideas (refs to published work or just names of researches would be helpful)? Or is it some old ideas + progress in CPU speed? Basically, what is the critical difference between today and 8 years ago?</p>
<p>Thanks!</p>
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		<title>Comment on Goodbye 2011, hello 2012 by Shane Legg</title>
		<link>http://www.vetta.org/2011/12/goodbye-2011-hello-2012/comment-page-1/#comment-21519</link>
		<dc:creator>Shane Legg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Jan 2012 02:38:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vetta.org/?p=1068#comment-21519</guid>
		<description>One complication with this prediction is that it might be impossible to falsify.  For example, if a major military managed to build such a system, and thus it become clear to them that human level AGI and beyond wasn&#039;t far off, there would be a strong incentive for them to keep this knowledge secret.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One complication with this prediction is that it might be impossible to falsify.  For example, if a major military managed to build such a system, and thus it become clear to them that human level AGI and beyond wasn&#8217;t far off, there would be a strong incentive for them to keep this knowledge secret.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Goodbye 2011, hello 2012 by Shane Legg</title>
		<link>http://www.vetta.org/2011/12/goodbye-2011-hello-2012/comment-page-1/#comment-21518</link>
		<dc:creator>Shane Legg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Jan 2012 02:17:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vetta.org/?p=1068#comment-21518</guid>
		<description>I think it&#039;s unlikely that there is one clean super algorithm to rule them all.  And if there is such an algorithm, I suspect it won&#039;t be the first solution to AGI that we find, rather an AGI will find this.

What I think we will end up with is an integrated system that consists of multiple components that work together in a complementary way.  I think this might be best explained by analogy.  Image that you didn&#039;t really know how to make a car.  One approach might be to think as follows: Ok, so we need to be able to drive in straight lines so we need a driving in a straight line module, plus we need to be able to go around corners so we need a module that handles that case too, and then there are hills so we will need a subsystem designed for going up and down hills... and so on.  This approach isn&#039;t going to work for car building, and it won&#039;t work for AGI either.

An alternative is how cars actually work: you need pistons, and a carburettor, and a fuel tank, and seats, and wheels, and gears and a clutch... and so on.  It&#039;s still a complex system with many parts that have functionally specific roles, but these roles are typically complementary and integral to the overall system.  I think that this is how the brain is designed, for the most part, rather than having specific modules for, say, language.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think it&#8217;s unlikely that there is one clean super algorithm to rule them all.  And if there is such an algorithm, I suspect it won&#8217;t be the first solution to AGI that we find, rather an AGI will find this.</p>
<p>What I think we will end up with is an integrated system that consists of multiple components that work together in a complementary way.  I think this might be best explained by analogy.  Image that you didn&#8217;t really know how to make a car.  One approach might be to think as follows: Ok, so we need to be able to drive in straight lines so we need a driving in a straight line module, plus we need to be able to go around corners so we need a module that handles that case too, and then there are hills so we will need a subsystem designed for going up and down hills&#8230; and so on.  This approach isn&#8217;t going to work for car building, and it won&#8217;t work for AGI either.</p>
<p>An alternative is how cars actually work: you need pistons, and a carburettor, and a fuel tank, and seats, and wheels, and gears and a clutch&#8230; and so on.  It&#8217;s still a complex system with many parts that have functionally specific roles, but these roles are typically complementary and integral to the overall system.  I think that this is how the brain is designed, for the most part, rather than having specific modules for, say, language.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Goodbye 2011, hello 2012 by Carl Shulman</title>
		<link>http://www.vetta.org/2011/12/goodbye-2011-hello-2012/comment-page-1/#comment-21517</link>
		<dc:creator>Carl Shulman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 Dec 2011 19:27:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vetta.org/?p=1068#comment-21517</guid>
		<description>Thanks Shane.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Shane.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Goodbye 2011, hello 2012 by gwern</title>
		<link>http://www.vetta.org/2011/12/goodbye-2011-hello-2012/comment-page-1/#comment-21516</link>
		<dc:creator>gwern</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 Dec 2011 16:21:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vetta.org/?p=1068#comment-21516</guid>
		<description>As Hanson says, in practice making predictions does not pay the bills since people aren&#039;t really interested in the truth or accurate forecasts. If it makes you feel better, if you are right, I at least will be impressed (http://predictionbook.com/predictions/5037).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As Hanson says, in practice making predictions does not pay the bills since people aren&#8217;t really interested in the truth or accurate forecasts. If it makes you feel better, if you are right, I at least will be impressed (<a href="http://predictionbook.com/predictions/5037" rel="nofollow">http://predictionbook.com/predictions/5037</a>).</p>
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		<title>Comment on Goodbye 2011, hello 2012 by Shane Legg</title>
		<link>http://www.vetta.org/2011/12/goodbye-2011-hello-2012/comment-page-1/#comment-21515</link>
		<dc:creator>Shane Legg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 Dec 2011 16:11:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vetta.org/?p=1068#comment-21515</guid>
		<description>Let me add a small meta comment: this might be my last annual prediction.

One reason is that it&#039;s kind of a lose-lose proposition.  If my predictions are wrong then I have a cost now from people who think I&#039;m crazy, plus more of the same in the future when I&#039;m wrong.  If my predictions are right, then I still have the same cost now, and in the future I doubt anybody will care much to give me much credit.  Most likely the ardent skeptics will have somewhat forgotten just how skeptical they were.  The main upside, I think, is that it might encourage people like yourself working on safety to consider whether they should devote more time to relatively near term practical approaches to AGI safety.  The impression I get is that in the last 5 years this has happened to some extent.  Hopefully my predictions have helped this along at least a tiny bit.

There is also a second reason why I&#039;m most likely going to stop:  I think the time has come now not for predicting and debating, but for doing.  Predictions and arguments are useful food for thought, but in the end only two things actually matter: formal mathematical proofs (not merely the mathematically phrased arguments I keep on seeing), and thorougher empirical demonstrations.  Once the assumptions in the proof or the range of testing conditions are properly understood, there isn&#039;t much left to argue about.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Let me add a small meta comment: this might be my last annual prediction.</p>
<p>One reason is that it&#8217;s kind of a lose-lose proposition.  If my predictions are wrong then I have a cost now from people who think I&#8217;m crazy, plus more of the same in the future when I&#8217;m wrong.  If my predictions are right, then I still have the same cost now, and in the future I doubt anybody will care much to give me much credit.  Most likely the ardent skeptics will have somewhat forgotten just how skeptical they were.  The main upside, I think, is that it might encourage people like yourself working on safety to consider whether they should devote more time to relatively near term practical approaches to AGI safety.  The impression I get is that in the last 5 years this has happened to some extent.  Hopefully my predictions have helped this along at least a tiny bit.</p>
<p>There is also a second reason why I&#8217;m most likely going to stop:  I think the time has come now not for predicting and debating, but for doing.  Predictions and arguments are useful food for thought, but in the end only two things actually matter: formal mathematical proofs (not merely the mathematically phrased arguments I keep on seeing), and thorougher empirical demonstrations.  Once the assumptions in the proof or the range of testing conditions are properly understood, there isn&#8217;t much left to argue about.</p>
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